
Rank: Elite Veteran
Joined: 1/16/2007 Posts: 930 Location: Wyoming



Rank: Elite Veteran
Joined: 1/16/2007 Posts: 930 Location: Wyoming

Flip vs. Minis


Rank: Regular
Joined: 3/3/2006 Posts: 81 Location: nky

Mini vs. Flip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyofJHatGs


Rank: Elite Veteran
Joined: 1/16/2007 Posts: 930 Location: Wyoming

When choosing doubles teams the most efficient and enjoyable way is to flip discs. "Flip discs? We don't do it that way around here." Why not? So far, nobody has been able to give a reason for this. I know human nature is to resist new or strange ideas. Flipping allows for comeplete randomness even with A & B draws. More later...


Rank: Regular
Joined: 3/3/2006 Posts: 81 Location: nky

Seems to me that the flipping method could become quite time consuming. If there was a bit more uniformity in the size/shape of mini's, the minidraw would be flawless.


Rank: Elite Veteran
Joined: 4/16/2012 Posts: 739 Location: amelia

i think that the way the guys do it on mondays and thursdays works fine they draw cards


Rank: Elite Veteran
Joined: 1/16/2007 Posts: 930 Location: Wyoming

Yes, it seems to be time consuming but, it isn't. Write down names(or not) and figure out how many are playing. Are there even numbers? If yes, proceed to circle up and flip. Reform into two seperate circles: Heads in one, tails in the other. Then it breaks down to numbers. Say, you have 8 players breaking into 4 groups. If 6 flip heads the 2 tails are a team and the 6 flip again. Now they flip 3 heads, 3 tails. Flip ( each group remaining) and out of the three


Rank: Elite Veteran
Joined: 1/16/2007 Posts: 930 Location: Wyoming

That is to say 3 heads flip odd man pairs with the other group's(3 tails) odd man and there you go!


Rank: Regular
Joined: 3/3/2010 Posts: 57

And by the time you do that cards would be drawn and the players would be teeing off. Let's say the six remaining flip 1 head 5 tails or some other unhelpful combination several times  sounds like fun.
Never have understood your fascination with the flip. I think you are confusing "rigid minds" with a "if something works well, why replace it with something that doesn't work as well" mindset. Maybe we should also play in sandals  they would be more comfortable, and rather than putting on socks and tying shoes we just slip on the flipflops and there you go!


Rank: Extreme Veteran
Joined: 5/14/2006 Posts: 300

People can and will flip heada or tails on purpose to get the partner tjey want its not that hard to flip which side u want.


Rank: Elite Veteran
Joined: 1/16/2007 Posts: 930 Location: Wyoming

Now, if you have an odd number of players the beauty of Flip for partners shines. First you ask everybody, 'Who wants to play Californian (solo) and they flip for it. Again, heads are dominant, so, if there are three that want to be Cali they flip. Once Cali is set everybody else flips fo partners.
Any questions? I've done doubles draws many ways and for all group sizes this is by far the most efficient, fair, and enjoyable way. How many times has somebody running doubles yelled out, 'Who is not in,' or 'Who owns this mini?' time wasted and no fun. How many times do you wonderful folks that run these events have to count minis/ count players/ count minis? Over and over sometimes ugh!


Rank: Elite Veteran
Joined: 1/16/2007 Posts: 930 Location: Wyoming

That is not true at all, Jeff. If you circle up and watch next to you that doesn't happen. There are cheaters out there but trying to manipulate flips won't work too welll, I've heard many people claim to always be able to flip a certain way fail. These same folks can always make that downhill cliff putt too oops, there it goes. My major frustration is a total lack of willingness to JUST try it. (Jason Kerl excepted)


Rank: Elite Veteran
Joined: 4/16/2012 Posts: 739 Location: amelia

when my friends and i play doubles we sometimes flip for teams and usally there is 6 to 10 of us and it takes 5 to 10 minutes to do it cuz we inevitably all flip heads or tails at least twice


Rank: Elite Veteran
Joined: 1/16/2007 Posts: 930 Location: Wyoming

5 to 10 mins is quite difficult to believe but, with practice 50 players can(done it) can flip in less than ten minutes how lonh would it take to draw minis?


Rank: Extreme Veteran
Joined: 6/6/2007 Posts: 383 Location: Erlanger, KY

I've drawn for dubs almost every way possible cards, minis, flip, etc. I honestly don't see much difference in the outcome. Since I'm not usually playing the event I have no reason to pull Joe Bobs small mini and Bob Joes big mini together to make them a team. I honestly think that flipping is a little more hands on for the players but I also think it is more time consuming. Another thought is if you have say 20 people flip at once, whos to say someone doesn't cheat and say they had heads when they had tails. Do you look at everyone elses disc when there are 20 of them laying on the ground? Me either. I think that flipping is great for less than 10 people but more than that it can get pretty time consuming. With a good turn out for Saturday Dubs there can be 28 people and to me drawing minis is just quicker and less hassle when in the end does it really make a difference? BTW John thanks for the exception :) Peace, Love, & Disc Golf


Rank: Elite Veteran
Joined: 4/16/2012 Posts: 739 Location: amelia

well anyone that cheats to get a better partner in disc golf just needs to go out and hang themselves cuz they have got a lot more wrong in their life than getting a good partner


Rank: Regular
Joined: 3/3/2010 Posts: 57

finnhawc wrote: My major frustration is a total lack of willingness to JUST try it. (Jason Kerl excepted)
So, if the person running dubs just tries it and subsequently decides that drawing cards is easier, would you agree never bring it up again? If so, that would probably provide sufficient motivation to try it...
Drawing cards is so much easier than drawing minis  you don't have to make sure everyone has a mini with their name on it, you don't need something to put them in, the lack of uniformity in size can lead to claims of inpropriety, and so on.
The hassle with flipping vs. drawing cards is not even close. Having to explain the process to new people, all of the combinations that result in the process taking longer... and if you factor in the aforementioned cheating possibilities (or at least the perception of shenanigans), then I honestly can't imagine why you would want to bother with it.


Rank: Expert
Joined: 3/1/2003 Posts: 1,598

BobO, you out there? Is this going to be the most fun we'll have all day?


Rank: Elite Veteran
Joined: 1/16/2007 Posts: 930 Location: Wyoming

Great addition to the discussion.


Rank: Expert
Joined: 3/1/2003 Posts: 1,598

Thanks. We use to do the flip quite a few years ago and Bob would always say "this is the most fun we're going to have all day".


Rank: Extreme Veteran
Joined: 5/14/2006 Posts: 300

I could really care less i have just seen ppl influence there flip so i prefer other methods. People will always look to gain a edge that is life. I


Rank: Elite Veteran
Joined: 1/16/2007 Posts: 930 Location: Wyoming

I love that, Dan!


Rank: Elite Veteran
Joined: 1/16/2007 Posts: 930 Location: Wyoming

Greg, let us say there were 1 head & 5 tails: the one head would be waiting for an odd man from the rest of the 5. The variations aren't that vast. " In mathematics, when X is a finite set of at least two elements, the permutations of X (i.e. the bijective mappings from X to X) fall into two classes of equal size: the even permutations and the odd permutations. If any total ordering of X is fixed, the parity (oddness or evenness) of a permutation of X can be defined as the parity of the number of inversions for σ, i.e., of pairs of elements x,y of X such that and .
The sign or signature of a permutation σ is denoted sgn(σ) and defined as +1 if σ is even and −1 if σ is odd. The signature defines the alternating character of the symmetric group S n . Another notation for the sign of a permutation is given by the more general LeviCivita symbol ( ), which is defined for all maps from X to X, and has value zero for nonbijective maps.
The sign of a permutation can be explicitly expressed as
sgn(σ) = (−1) N(σ)
where N(σ) is the number of inversions in σ.
Alternatively, the sign of a permutation σ can be defined from its decomposition into the product of transpositions as
sgn(σ) = (−1) m
where m is the number of transpositions in the decomposition. Although such a decomposition is not unique, the parity of the number of transpositions in all decompositions is the same, implying that the sign of a permutation is welldefined. [1]"
'Na I mean?


Rank: Elite Veteran
Joined: 1/16/2007 Posts: 930 Location: Wyoming

:)


Rank: Elite Veteran
Joined: 1/16/2007 Posts: 930 Location: Wyoming

By rigid minds I mean inflexible, don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made, and how dare you try and bring up a new method (for most untried). And the sandeless for sure.


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